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| < Double-thinker |
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Thu Mar 17, 2005 12:56 am
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this warrior is strange, in that they hold two opposite beliefs the both belive to be true, they may be a hippie and also a communist, or a person that thinks that thinks something is true even though it is an admited hoax, they may even say stuff such as "I bet you liberals would of voted Nazi!"
Double-thinker may be ignorant, or may of taken 1984 the wrong way, anyway most warriors just repeatidly point out errors in their logic but to no avail, double-thinker will always be an idiot |
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Thu Mar 17, 2005 1:39 am
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The Cryptkeeper
Joined: 01 Jan 2005
Posts: 3355
Location: Australia
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Even though you are a member, it would have done you some good to use this thread first.
Anyhow no matter you are now on a separate thread so we'll help you put it in terms (here) which maight define it a little further. When I first saw it, I thought- Wow good to see someone reinforce a previous idea. But I see now it's not the same as Perplexus Infinitum.
Anyhow I'm not sure what sort of warrior you are taking about exactly, care to expand the warrior a bit more.
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The important thing is knowing who owns the fence |
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Thu Mar 17, 2005 9:47 am
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Forum Flirt
Joined: 06 Jan 2005
Posts: 1168
Location: Wouldn't you like to know
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I think I see where he's attempting to go with this - this is the liberal who is against abortion, or the staunch conservative who is totally against anything Bush does. Kind of a political schizoid.
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The Average Woman Would Rather Have Beauty Than Brains Because The Average Man Can See Better Than He Can Think |
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Thu Mar 17, 2005 12:17 pm
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The Cryptkeeper
Joined: 01 Jan 2005
Posts: 3355
Location: Australia
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Oherrr don't know what to do with this one. Sounds like a warrior that has got the wrong end of the stick every time. (Hold on much like the Glue development suggestion) with the exception that this warrior is just too Loopy or stupid to see that they are wrong.
Right now someone is thinking Ferrous Cranus.
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The important thing is knowing who owns the fence |
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Thu Mar 17, 2005 2:11 pm
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Power-Mad Nazi Mod
Joined: 25 Jan 2005
Posts: 2750
Location: Cuba
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I've read 1984 at least a dozen times, this is very interesting to me (though it might bore the shit out of the rest of you). Either way, In order to hopefully cement this description here's more on the concept of doublethink.
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Doublethink means, according to George Orwell's dystopian novel Nineteen Eighty-Four:
the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them. ... To tell deliberate lies while genuinely believing in them, to forget any fact that has become inconvenient, and then, when it becomes necessary again, to draw it back from oblivion for just so long as it is needed, to deny the existence of objective reality and all the while to take account of the reality which one denies—all this is indispensably necessary. Even in using the word doublethink it is necessary to exercise doublethink. For by using the word one admits that one is tampering with reality; by a fresh act of doublethink one erases this knowledge; and so on indefinitely, with the lie always one leap ahead of the truth. (pages 176-177)
As Orwell explains in The Book, the Party could not protect its iron grip on power without degrading its people and exposing them to constant propaganda. Yet knowledge of this brutality and deception, even within the Party itself could lead to disgusted collapse of the state from within, as the Soviet Union later fell in the late 20th century. For this reason, Orwell’s idealized government used a complex system of “reality control”. Though the novel is most famous for its pervasive surveillance of daily life, reality control meant that the population could be controlled and manipulated merely through the alteration of everyday language and thought. Newspeak was the method for controlling thought through language; Doublethink was the method of controlling thought directly.
Doublethink was a form of trained, willful blindness to contradictions in a system of beliefs. In the case of Winston Smith, Orwell's protagonist, it meant being able to work at the Ministry of Truth deleting uncomfortable facts from public records, and then believing in the new history which he himself had written.
Through doublethink, the Party was able to not only bomb its own people and tell its citizens that the bombs were sent by the enemy, but all Party members--even the ones that launched the rockets themselves--were able to believe that the bombs were launched from outside.
Additionally, Doublethink’s self-deception also allowed the Party to maintain both huge goals and realistic expectations: “If one is to rule, and to continue ruling, one must be able to dislocate the sense of reality. For the secret of rulership is to combine a belief in one’s own infallibility with the power to learn from past mistakes” (page 177). Thus, each party member could be a credulous pawn, but would never lack relevant information. The party is both fanatical and well-informed, and thus unlikely either to “ossify” or “grow soft” and collapse. “Killing the messenger” disturbed the command-and control of the Nazi (and later the Iraqi) militaries, but would not present itself in such a system. Doublethink thus functioned as key tool of self-discipline of the Party, to complement the state-imposed discipline of propaganda and a police state. Together, these tools hid the government’s evil not only from the people, but also from the government itself, but without the confusion and misinformation associated with more primitive totalitarian regimes.
Doublethink was critical in allowing the Party to know what its true goals were without recoiling from them. Previous dictatorships made the mistake of conflating their egalitarian propaganda with their purpose; 1984 demonstrated that the next generation of dictatorship would not be so naïve.
Over the years since Nineteen Eighty-Four was published, the term Doublethink has grown to be synonymous with relieving cognitive dissonance by simply ignoring the contradiction between two worldviews. Some schools of therapy such as cognitive therapy encourage people to alter their own thoughts as a way of treating different psychological maladies. |
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Thu Mar 17, 2005 2:29 pm
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The Cryptkeeper
Joined: 01 Jan 2005
Posts: 3355
Location: Australia
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Thanks Lord Cheesus for bringing clarity. It's a term I've not come across, or just plain forgot. Doublethink, man I feel dumb. The word scratchs some odd place in me, that needs to ask, people like that can exist?
thats Ferrous Cranus explained for me - I know I am right though what I write is wrong.
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The important thing is knowing who owns the fence |
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Thu Mar 17, 2005 3:21 pm
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Abusive Admin
Joined: 14 Jan 2005
Posts: 6059
Location: The Archive of Fortitude
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| Fence Sitter wrote: |
| When I first saw it, I thought- Wow good to see someone reinforce a previous idea. But I see now it's not the same as Perplexus Infinitum. |
This is why I keep telling people to stop suggesting new warriors in the middle of a thread. You should put these suggestions in their own threads.
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Tireless Rebutter / Archivist
The Grand Suggestion List |
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Thu Mar 17, 2005 3:42 pm
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Abusive Admin
Joined: 14 Jan 2005
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| teamtunafish wrote: |
| I think I see where he's attempting to go with this - this is the liberal who is against abortion, or the staunch conservative who is totally against anything Bush does. Kind of a political schizoid. |
Bush is not a conservative. He is a neoconservative.
I think this warrior more describes someone with logic that seems impossible to exist. Like they might complain about drunk drivers and random police checkpoints in the same breath. Think: politicians during an election year.
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Thu Mar 17, 2005 3:58 pm
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Forum Flirt
Joined: 06 Jan 2005
Posts: 1168
Location: Wouldn't you like to know
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Well I think this should go in the trash until whoever thought this guy up (and why can't they register before they post?  ) shows up and clarifies what the hell he meant by this.
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The Average Woman Would Rather Have Beauty Than Brains Because The Average Man Can See Better Than He Can Think |
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Thu Mar 17, 2005 5:59 pm
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Abusive Admin
Joined: 14 Jan 2005
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Location: The Archive of Fortitude
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It's hard to make up doublethink examples unless you're irrational, and quoting certain people might spark an ideologue battle.
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Tireless Rebutter / Archivist
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Thu Mar 17, 2005 8:30 pm
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The Cryptkeeper
Joined: 01 Jan 2005
Posts: 3355
Location: Australia
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irritus - as I do have something which many would reference for "ideas" and happily change them slightly, I have to at times, acknowledge the existence of these similar warriors. Some current members here, have visited Mike's guestbook and left ideas for years. I would not like them to get any notion, I may be re-offering their ideas.
For the interest of other people, I have done this in the past, before you became a mod. This is how some people became aware of it in the first place. This site is primarily about new warrior suggestions.
I also will reference "previous" ideas mentioned in this current forum, if I think they might apply. I say this, as there is a good chance the suggestion was indeed prompted by viewing these prior suggestions. I might add there is nothing wrong with that, and some good work has come of it, even including a suggestion that I have done.
Anyhow thankfully, Lord Cheesus clarifed the matter for me.
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The important thing is knowing who owns the fence |
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Thu Mar 17, 2005 11:21 pm
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Abusive Admin
Joined: 14 Jan 2005
Posts: 6059
Location: The Archive of Fortitude
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| Fence Sitter wrote: |
| irritus - as I do have something which many would reference for "ideas" and happily change them slightly, I have to at times, acknowledge the existence of these similar warriors. Some current members here, have visited Mike's guestbook and left ideas for years. I would not like them to get any notion, I may be re-offering their ideas. |
I am well aware of that, and I appreciate it. However, the easiest way for new members to see if something's been suggested is to read over the threads. If a new or guestbook-ressurected warrior has it's own thread, it's more likely someone will have something to reference it with.
It's also much easier to make a direct link to the suggestion. One month from now, if Glue is resuggested, who is going to remember you posted the description in the middle of this thread? Linking to a suggestion mid-thread requires hunting through the source code for the anchor name.
I believe you've misunderstood my tone. I'm not coming down on you, I'm trying to point out putting warriors in their own threads makes it easier to prevent/point out repeated resuggesting.
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Tireless Rebutter / Archivist
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Fri Mar 18, 2005 1:19 am
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The Cryptkeeper
Joined: 01 Jan 2005
Posts: 3355
Location: Australia
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johnny-turbo good suggestion.
Again much thanks to Lord Cheesus.
irritus, OK, but pretty much I summed up in the development thread, no one should have to look through the thread to tease out suggestions to be included in the sticky index. Yes maybe my link should have pointed to the post with Perplexus Infinitum in it, but I was feeling lazy.
The point of this thread was as a stepping block. I also expect it to be viewed, and warriors making new suggestions to check to see if there isn't one similar in current development. That's a bit unfair of me to expect that people would look.
I wouldn't normally expect any new suggestion in development to hurriedly be shifted to it's onw topic. The new Glue suggestion has only been in there for a day or so, where upon, nothing much negitive, I'll move it to it's own thread. I could have dropped it in it's own thread straight off, but I was trying to lay an example down. Anyhow Kramer did a good job of suggesting a warrior and got a " pre diagnosis" (for the want of a better word or expression- my brain died this morning)
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The important thing is knowing who owns the fence |
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